Silicon Roundabout update and what we can learn from Google

May 23, 2012 by Leave a comment

“Silicon Roundabout”, the area surrounding Old Street, sits on the northern fringe of the centuries-old financial hub, the City of London. I first heard the name a couple of years ago, and visiting the area then to carry out some research, my curiosity was piqued visiting  a hack space . At the time, the area felt like the genesis of a wannabe cluster but could be described somewhat unkindly, but more accurately, as a small and motley crew of entrepreneurs and internet startups.  Last week, as I navigated my way towards Google’s Campus , the energy and buzz created by new start-ups, tech hubs, cafes and workspaces was almost tangible.  The location of Google’s building, comprised of 7-storeys of co-working space, a café and events space plus networking events and mentoring programmes, confirms that a remarkable transformation has indeed taken place. Charles Armstrong, CEO of Trampoline Systems  a company mapping the technology network, estimates that there are up to 5,000 technology-focused companies located in East London creating an ever expanding “ technology ecosystem”.

Back to the Campus

Google’s Nelson Mattos, Google VP for Product and Engineering gave a great talk “Creating a culture of do’s” which essentially was his personal take on how Google innovates. Mattos spent his former career at IBM,where the culture of innovation was totally different, and so his perspective was particularly interesting.

The nature of Google’s business means that “innovation never stops”, so in order to build a culture of innovation, there needs to be a “mission that matters”, that everyone can get behind e.g. making the internet an integral part of daily lives in Africa.

Mattos’ rules for Innovation :

  1. Hire the best - top talent drives innovation – Google attracts lots of different types e.g opera singers as well as magicians but they always hire from the best universities. The hiring process is extremely unbiased  – in Google, the manager of a department recruiting doesn’t make the final decision; the focus is on finding people who will be able to work in a team.
  2. Foster entrepreneurship – create an environment where people can pursue idea – flatten the management structure, encourage bottom-up contributions – ideas can come from anywhere.  The famous “20% time” – where employees give 80% of their time to assigned  projects and have the rest to do explore other areas – can be used for a variety of objectives; own projects, career extension (new areas), mentoring, volunteering etc. As a global company, its necessary to make sure that the head office doesn’t have a monopoly on new ideas. It’s also important to allow people to deliver half-baked ideas
  3. Be transparent, open and share everything - encourage collaboration, eliminate unhealthy competition, avoid duplications, reduce politics, give everyone quarterly goals (OKR’s). Goals are self-evaluated, all published for all to see. This encourages honest assessments. Share outside (e.g Android platform), look for ways to work collaboratively.
  4. Use data instead of being subjective – use data to help you choose between options. Do test and experiments – collect data and don’t just rely on focus groups or what the marketing people think.
  5. Put users first and think about money second – if data is not conclusive. What is best to make the user want to use application? Traffic generation is critical. Focus on how you monetise this afterwards. E.g. Google has an internet bus touring India to engage with public. It will hopefully monetise this when they get access to computers.
  6. Speed does matter – people are really impatient. Speed in innovation doesn’t result in perfection first time round e.g android . Create an environment and infrastructure that enables you to move fast and:
    Launch fast and often and perfect over time. Get feedback – iterate from this e.g. Google Translate has improved dramatically since launch. Dogfooding – test products internally (tests 30,000 Googlers worldwide). Fail fast – ditch bad ideas, good ideas spread virally and Fail gracefully – if you fail, make sure you don’t leave a mess for everyone else.

Google’s constant innovation model is more likely to foster incremental rather than radical change but Google  also hives projects off into a skunkworks setup if appropriate. Under the auspices of Sergey Brin, recent examples include the driverless car which is currently being road-tested. Google’s innovation approach also highlights the differences between service and product innovation, particularly in terms of speed and cost. Nevertheless, there are key points here that are relevant to all types of organisations.

Filed under General, Sustainability Clusters, Uncategorized

The 6heads recommend Breakthrough Capitalism Forum, 29 May

May 23, 2012 by Leave a comment

Volans are hosting a Forum in London next week called Breakthrough Capitalism which the 6heads highly recommend, more details can be found below.

Breakthrough Capitalism Forum, 29 May

Join us as we explore, debate and project Breakthrough Capitalism at the Kings Place Conference Centre in London. We will explore themes such as:

  • Capitalism Unplugged – outlining the growing sense that our challenges relate to systemic failures
  • Breakthrough Innovation – how investors, entrepreneurs & policy-makers, among others, are driving change
  • System Dynamics – where barriers to breakthrough exist and how they can be removed, and
  • Scaling Solutions – how breakthrough solutions can deliver system-level change.

The format will take the form of TED-style presentations lasting about 10 minutes each plus shorter talks to spotlight where breakthrough innovation is bubbling, and Q&A sessions.

For more information check out this link  http://www.breakthroughcapitalism.com/

We’ll see you there :)

Filed under Uncategorized

Are you an unnovator?

May 17, 2012 by Leave a comment

Microsoft recently revealed new software which allows users to get clear cut outs of items within pictures from photographs or off the web.  They proudly illustrated its capabilities using a Llama.

As you know, Microsoft is one of the world’s biggest companies with access to significant resources and many of the world’s best brains. But is this the best they can do around innovation? And is this really innovation at all?

If imagination is the ultimate renewable resource and the single most important human attribute that will allow us to innovate out of the global challenges facing the species – wouldn’t it be good to focus imagination on things that really matter?

Recently, for a 6heads webinar, we defined innovation as ‘new and creating value for society’.

While I’m sure society has a range of interpretations of value, we set-out a number of things that we called ‘unnovations’. We defined them as offering no real value to people or the planet.  This list included a toupee for babies, a self-rotating ice-cream cone and, controversially, bottled water.

The demand for bottle water has grown exponentially in the last few decades to more than 200 billion bottles of water consumed globally, per annum. The bottled water market is expected to reach $65.9 billion this year*. But in a world facing extreme survival challenges, popularity or commercial return shouldn’t be enough to make something ‘valuable’.  There are a few reasons why bottled water falls on our list of ‘unnovations’:

  • It deflects water from rivers required to maintain natural environments (which serve people in numerous ways – from agriculture to purification to aesthetics).
  • It incorporates valuable resources in the machines, people and packaging used, which could perhaps be used to create other more necessary items or, in the case of the oil used for packaging – not used at all.
  • It adds to carbon challenges through transportation all around the world.
  • Bottled water, unlike tap water, is not necessarily monitored by authorities or treated and may contain chemicals, hormonal disruptors or other contaminants that could impact health of consumers over time.
  • Once consumed bottles are discarded, primarily for landfill.

But this blog is not intended to stop you ordering bottled water (although that would be a good unintended consequence). It’s to encourage you to take all your creativity and apply it to developing solutions that really matter.  Imagine if, instead of kick-starting a micro-finance industry that has transformed the lives of billions of people, Yunnus had chosen to waste his talents designing a new flavour yoghurt. Delicious yoghurt, I’m sure, but it’s like asking Einstein to rather count pennies or Michelangelo to paint houses.

Maybe you don’t feel like you could be a Yunnus or a Einstein or a Michelangelo, however, any of us can be more useful and thereby impactful in the world through making the conscious shift from unnovation to innovation. Here are a few ideas** -

  1. Don’t encourage unnovators. Don’t get taken in but the next “new new” thing. Ask yourself ‘so what’ before you buy. Realise that its about trade-offs – do you want a great big fuel-consuming vehicle so much you’re prepared to sacrifice the beautiful Canadian wilderness or pristine Antarctic to oil-seekers?
  2. Do what matters.  You spend most of your life at work. Why not work on something worthwhile?  Your life is your legacy – make it count.
  3. Do what you can. To quote Kermit “it’s not easy being green”. But, even a small decision can make a big difference.  This could include:
    • Innovating around your ‘inputs’ to incorporate products that are positively impactful on the planet (e.g. as a builder using carbon positive cement, as a home owner using Method washing liquid, or buying organic and local ingredients for food production). A major American airline recently started using Eleather on its seats.  This is not only an environmental win as it uses discarded leather in its production, but also a commercial win as the seats last longer than those covered in conventional leather.
    • Innovating around your process to rethink the way you do things. This could be as simple as using less water and energy or creating less waste.  However, you could also consider renting instead of buying  (e.g. Christmas trees – see the Little Christmas Tree company), looking for modular solutions (e.g. removable in parts, carpet from Interface, Xerox copiers) or looking for collective solutions (e.g. Zipcar).
    • Innovating around your business model to incorporate the new thinking around shared value and inclusivity and environmental care. Whether it’s as simple as reviewing your suppliers to understand environmental risk or as complex as launching a shared value emerging market new product.

We are facing multiple challenges that threaten our future – climate change, water scarcity, food scarcity and population growth.  We have sufficient human ingenuity to develop truly innovative solutions, to identify game-changing opportunities and to create a sensible future.

We need less cut-out llamas and more real innovators.

*Sources: BBC, PR Web, Wikipedia

** These are my ideas – what are yours?  Sharing is caring…

***Companies mentioned:

Eleather: http://www.eleatherltd.com/

Method: http://methodhome.com/

Little Christmas Tree: http://www.thelittlechristmastreecompany.co.uk/

Zipcar: http://zipcar.co.uk

Interface: www.interfaceflor.co.uk

Xerox: http://www.xerox.co.uk/

Filed under Radical Innovation Tagged with , , , , , , ,

Why isn’t anyone shouting?

May 11, 2012 by 3 Comments

 

Around this time last year I attended a lecture by Neville Brody, a design hero of mine, in a series hosted by Design London and called ‘sustainability’. Brody chose, before the summer riots I hasten to add, to talk about the sustainability of an anti status-quo public voice. He questioned why, in today’s increasingly troubled world, people, and particularly the younger generation aren’t more angry and more vocal – what happened to the youth activism of the 60s and 70s, to push for change, to galvanizing abound injustice… where is today’s protest movement, punk movement, peace movement, movement or cause of any kind?

 

What he had to say has been bubbling away in my mind every since, and I can’t help but feel he’s right. For a so-called ‘lost’ generation, whose employment prospects are bleak and financial and environmental future frightening, there is little shouting going on. So why not? Is it that the world in which they live today has not inspired them to care? Or instead that they are simply not being heard?

 

This started me thinking about, and comparing with today, the popular culture of the 60’s and 70’s, when political activism amongst young people was widespread and the call for change permeated the art, music, fashion and celebrity of the time. Think ‘ban the bomb’ symbols, flower power, Joni Mitchell’s ‘Big yellow taxi’ song, John Lennon and Yoko Ono’s stay in bed and grow your hair protest. There are today, and always have been, marginal groups protesting for social and environmental change, but the wider creative expression of a desire for change and discontentment with the current situation it seems, at first glance, are absent from the popular youth culture of today.

 

To test this theory, I set the task to my social media family of creating a more current play-list to rival the Joni Mitchells, Billy Braggs and Marvin Gays of the 60s and 70 and 80s. In a music industry that, today, appears to many to be dominated with negative messages of guns, girls and getting rich quick, would this be a tough challenge? The fruits of our search: a list of 24 songs from the last 20 years, five of which came from the last decade. A small crop compared to the plethora of antiestablishment songs created in the 60s. Here are the most current (some contain explicit lyrics!):

 

• A dream – Common featuring Will.I.Am (a call out to tackle injustice)

 

• The fear – Lily Allen (a satirical look at consumer culture)

 

• Where is the love – Black eyed peas (a mirror held up to a broken society)

 

• Waiting on the world to change – John Mayer (a challenge on inaction)

 

• Reduce, reuse, recycle – Jack Johnson (a simple message of recycling!)

 

Music, art, fashion have huge reach and influence in our society, and are at the core of youth identity. Why isn’t more music about positive change and an unacceptable status quo being created? Or, is it just that we don’t know where to look or how to listen?


Filed under Uncategorized

Inspiration, Innovation Impact Booster Course – Part 2

May 8, 2012 by Leave a comment

You are invited to attend the second of a two part learning series on Inspiration, Innovation and Impact.

The first session gave participants a fresh view of their abilities, their organisations and the innovation opportunity. This was followed by a series of booster creativity exercises.

Participant feedback was excellent: “Well done! This was a great innovation for change webinar. I love how interactive and action-oriented you made it.“

First session slides are available here: http://www.slideshare.net/NicolaMillson/inspiration-innovation-and-impact-series-part-1

The second part focusses on practical support for idea generation and effective implementation. It is not necessary to have viewed the first webinar to attend the second.

Next Session Friday 11th May at 11am

To register, please go to:

https://globalgivinguk.wufoo.com/forms/innovating-for-change-webinar-2/

To join the webinar on Friday, please use:  

This webinar be delivered in conjunction with Global Giving, an organisation that gives local CSOs around the world the chance to connect to sources of finance, learning and support. Their network includes over 2,000 nonprofits in 110 countries.  This webinar is part of a programme of organisational learning and development and aims to encourage greater strategic thinking, creativity and effectiveness in the sector. http://www.globalgiving.co.uk/

“Creative thinking is not a talent; it is a skill that can be learnt. It empowers people by adding strength to their natural abilities which improves teamwork, productivity and where appropriate profits.” Edward de Bono

If your organisation would like a similar learning experience, please contact 6heads or nicola.millson@6-heads.com.

Filed under Uncategorized

“The paradigm needs to shift from value for money to value for many” – Vijay Govindarajan

April 30, 2012 by Leave a comment

Following on from Sonia’s recent blog,  Sharp companies, which details Gillette’s success in addressing the needs of the bottom of the pyramid through “reverse innovation”,  Vijay Govindarajan, in the lastest  BBC World Service Global Business report, discusses how “reverse innovation” is transforming business opportunities in developing markets – as long as businesses are prepared abandon preconceptions and avoid automatically replicating approaches that have been successful in developed markets. From housing to healthcare, he encourages us to approach new challenges as if we have just landed on Mars. Why does a “housing” unit need to cost $500,000? Why should cardiac operations in the United States cost  multiples of those undertaken in India? Although it may be counter-intuitive for Western consumers accustomed to associating price with quality, through scaling up the quantum of medical procedures, expertise gained by medical practitioners and surgeons can actually result in superior outcomes at significantly lower costs – what Govindarajan describes as ”…the paradigm shift for value for money to value for many”.

Importantly, “reverse” innovation differs from  “frugal” innovation in the role that latest technologies can play in allowing developing countries to leapfrog conventional development patterns. Kenya is a case in point where the absence of fixed-line telecommunications infrastructure has spawned a plethora of uses for the mobile phone, in particular its use in personal banking.

6heads believe that resource constraints, whilst more pressing on a day-to-day basis in poorer countries and populations, should be an issue that frames all our thinking. “Reverse” innovation is not only relevant to emerging economies but is  something that we should look to emulate within our own economies. For an engaging discussion on how we can learn from “Reverse innovation”, 6heads recommends listening to the latest broadcast from “Global Business – Innovation from the Developing World”

Filed under Uncategorized

Is there such a thing as a sustainable business?

April 29, 2012 by 1 Comment

Last year, the 6 of us delved extensively into this question and it dawned on me that we hadn’t yet offered a perspective on this blog. So here we go….

Sustainability “is like exploration into a tangle conceptual jungle where watchful eyes lurk at every bend ”.
(Timothy O’Riordan)

The obvious thing pops into my mind when trying to answer this question is the need to address the meaning of the word sustainable. While that requires much more than short blog post, I don’t think I can go on to discuss whether there is such a thing as a sustainable business without, at least, touching upon what sustainability means in the first place. There are so many definitions of sustainability but perhaps one that is appropriate in this case is the International Institute for Sustainable Development’s definition which says that a sustainable business is one that “adopts business strategies and activities that meet the needs of the enterprise and its stakeholders today while protecting, sustaining and enhancing the human and natural resources that will be needed in the future”. We can also talk about sustainability as the relationality of various components in society – the triple bottom line dimensions. Or we can talk about sustainability as being about a “safe, secure, healthy and equitable world for 9 billion in 2050” (John Elkington). What’s clear is that sustainability is a contested concept, and one which is often defined with more contested concepts. Following on from this, I think it’s best to agree that the practical implementation of a sustainability definition will vary across industries, geographies, and cultures (etc.) “because at its core sustainability is an underlying approach rather than a definitive list of activities” (The Economist). Based on this, what does a sustainable business look like?

There are many ways to answer this question, looking at different types of businesses or different theories; I’ve merely selected a few.

A sustainable business copies nature.

This is based on the idea that a sustainable business should learn from the natural world because so many organisms have already solved the problems we are trying to tackle (for more on this, I recommend watching Janine Benyus’ Ted talk). A business inspiring itself on nature would thus do things that nature does…. It would only use renewable energy; it would not waste energy or other resources (reusing and recycling everything); it would curb excess and would adapt to local conditions. Last but not least, it would see itself as part of a wider ecosystem and understand that it is not isolated.

A sustainable business is part of a sustainable system.

This last point echoes that of industrial ecology, where a business is a studied as part of a wider system and where linkages between components of the system are studied to understand how to best make use of them. It also mirrors the concept of cradle-to-cradle design where the entire lifecycle of a product, service or business is taken into consideration from the onset with the goal of minimizing waste, and maximizing efficiency.  One such example (which for reason or another seems to be stuck in my head) is “from carboard to caviar” which uses cradle-to-cradle design to produce caviar. The idea that a business can only be sustainable if it is part of a wider sustainable system seems obvious. Businesses do not act in isolation and constantly interact with other parts of society. It thus follows on from that a sustainable business is one that works in collaboration with other parts (suppliers, society, consumers, etc.) to maintain the system’s sustainability.

A sustainable business is innovative.

Because systems are dynamic with ever-evolving relationships, a sustainable business is also one that constantly adapts through a reiterative process to ensure it meets the system’s (and/or society’s) needs.

There are many other aspects to consider in this question. For example, the idea of a sustainable business being one that serves the needs of society as described in Porter and Kramer’s shared value paper. Or that a sustainable business is one that adopts a long term vision (underpinned by the definition of sustainability where the needs of future generations are not compromised by current practices). The question of whether a sustainable business should aim to make profit can also be posed. To this, I like to refer to Peter Drucker who said that “profit for a company is like oxygen for a person. If you don’t have it, you’re out of the game. But if you think your life is about breathing you’re really missing something.” From this standpoint, a business should aim to make a profit to ensure it is financially sustainable, but this does not necessarily entail profit maximization without a further purpose.

So is there such a thing as a sustainable business? Today, I’d be inclined to answer no because there are so many things wrong with the system overall, and as I discussed above, a business is only as sustainable as its system. More importantly, I’d be even more inclined to say does it really matter? Probably not. Maybe we should just keep it simple: do well by doing good, and get on with it.

Filed under Uncategorized

Webinar: Insight, Impact and Innovation Booster Course

April 23, 2012 by Leave a comment

6heads is delivering a two-part webinar series starting this Friday 27th April at 11am.

The first session will open participants up to a fresh view of their abilities, their organisations and the innovation opportunity. This will be followed by a series of booster creativity exercises and a further webinar that focusses on idea generation and effective implementation.

This will be delivered in conjunction with Global Giving, an organisation that gives local CSOs around the world the chance to connect to sources of finance, learning and support. Their network includes over 2,000 nonprofits in 110 countries.  This webinar is part of a programme of organisational learning and development and aims to encourage greater strategic thinking, creativity and effectiveness in the sector. http://www.globalgiving.co.uk/

“Creative thinking is not a talent; it is a skill that can be learnt. It empowers people by adding strength to their natural abilities which improves teamwork, productivity and where appropriate profits.” Edward de Bono

To register, please go to:

https://globalgivinguk.wufoo.com/forms/innovating-for-change-webinar-1-registration-form/

Please contact nicola.millson@6-heads.com for details of related learning opportunities.

Filed under Uncategorized

Sharp Companies

April 21, 2012 by 1 Comment

For a company, the choice to cannibalise its own market in an attempt to design products and services for poorer consumers is risky. This is why very few attempt it. The stakes are raised further when this product reaps small margins. But if the company can sell low margin products at high volumes, the rewards can be great.

Vijay Govinderajan, professor at the Harvard Business School shares yet another example of this in practice with Gillette and the razor market in India. This company is extremely forward looking and its fearless attempts to create market opportunities where its competitors fear not, is admirable. This courage will no doubt shape it into a sustainable business making it highly resistant to disruptive innovators. The 6heads highly recommend this blog, to read it follow the link below:

http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2012/04/how_pg_innovates_on_razor_thin.html?referral=00563&cm_mmc=email-_-newsletter-_-daily_alert-_-alert_date&utm_source=newsletter_daily_alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=alert_date

Filed under Frugal Innovation

Giles Hutchins sets the scene for transformative innovation

April 9, 2012 by Leave a comment

Every now and again we come across someone whose ideas resonate so much with 6heads that we want to share… Giles is one of those people.  Enjoy his latest blog.

Transforming towards the firm of the future

Due to a “perfect storm” of economic, social and environmental factors, our business landscape is becoming more and more volatile.

The pace of change, too, is increasing. To succeed in business we must be agile, creative, alert, spontaneous and responsive – often operating in completely new ways. Today’s rapidly changing business environment calls for businesses that thrive in rapidly changing environments: businesses more akin to living systems. These “Firms of the Future” can learn and adapt; they aren’t structured and siloed, which stifles learning and agility. These firms are also bottom-up, decentralized, interdependent, multifunctional, emergent, self-organizing units– not the centralised, top-down, hierarchically managed monoliths of the 20th century.

Put simply, the business models and management approaches that served us well in the past are no longer fit for purpose in a business context where dynamic change is the new norm.

Professor Michael Porter said a few months ago when addressing business leaders in New York: “The old models of corporate strategy and capitalism are dead.  We are witnessing a paradigm shift from hurting to helping.”

Organizations that are able to let go of old business paradigms, having the courage to embrace new ways of operating while dealing with the pressing short-term issues of today, shall be the ones who can weather the storm, adapting to seek out opportunities in these volatile times. Other organizations, fearfully clinging to practices that are no longer fit for purpose for the times within which we now operate, shall struggle to cope with the level of change ahead.

It requires great courage to break rank from a paradigm that is so ingrained in our business mindset; to transform in the face of pressing short-term pain.

The years ahead to 2020, in this decade of creative destruction and reconstruction, shall bear witness to the wheat being separated from the chaff – organizations that “get it” adapting and evolving, and those that do not perishing or being acquired. Bold “Firms of the Future” do not try and tightly manage change; they empower a culture of collaboration to unlock the creative potential of their own workforce, their partners and the communities they serve, initiating positive virtuous cycles of collaboration, innovation and value creation for all stakeholders. The result: more value, bigger margins and higher well-being.

As Dawn Vance, Director of Global Logistics at Nike succinctly puts it:

“Organizations have three options:

  1. Hit the wall;
  2. Optimize and delay hitting the wall; or
  3. Redesign for resilience – simultaneously optimizing existing networks whilst creating disruptive innovations and working collaboratively with partners.”

It is this “redesigning for resilience” that drives the transformation from a Firm of The Past to a Firm of The Future. The Firm of the Future is one that:

  1. Drives transformation through values-based leadership and stakeholder empowerment using the catalysts of education, innovation, inspiration and collaboration;
  2. Encourages synergies across its business ecosystem, engaging with multiple stakeholders in an open, transparent way; where common values create connections enabling mutualism;
  3. Harnesses the power of social networks and the “pull” media; uses crowd sourcing, co-creation, open source collaboration platforms and transparent branding for differentiation;
  4. Evolves ecological thinking for innovating and new ways of operating and generation value for every stakeholder within the community it serves; where waste equals food and nature inspires the people, processes and products.

The pressure for change is increasing all the time. Well-publicized forward-thinking organizations are already making headway on their transformational journey – Unilever, Puma, InterfaceFLOR, General Electric, Patagonia, Procter & Gamble, John Lewis Partnership and Marks & Spencers, to name a few. Visionary business leaders of today are already making the first steps on this transformational, emergent path for themselves and their businesses.

And it is a journey rather than a destination. Transforming towards a Firm of The Future is not about designing the right business model and implementing it, it is about understanding the ethos, ethics and environment that will allow the organization, individuals and wider stakeholder community to best flourish, adapt and evolve. It’s an emergent journey, a journey that encourages diversity in approaches and outcomes, one where it is good to make mistakes, even fail, as it generates learning to move forward in a more resilient way.

 

Giles Hutchins is a UK-based management consultant with more than 15 years of business and IT transformation experience, formerly with KPMG and more recently with Atos International. His passion is exploring ways of applying nature’s inspiration to sustainable business transformation. Drawing on a range of theories and practices (such as biomimicry, cradle-to-cradle and industrial ecology) he applies them to the challenges businesses face today, providing practical insight and guidance to help organizations redesign for resilience in these volatile times. He works with many leading organizations in the field of sustainability and business transformation, including Biomimicry for Creative Innovation (BCI) and Tomorrow’s Company.

Filed under Systems change Tagged with , , ,

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